Curse

kedde · Feb 24, 2010, 08:21 PM // 20:21

That focus shifted when nightfall was released and WC's discontinued.

Shriketalon · Feb 24, 2010, 08:28 PM // 20:28

I think it is less a case of "sophistication", and more of expectation.

PvE players want new things. New weapons, new dungeons, new missions, new regions, new places to explore and things to kill.

PvP players want current things to be stabilized. There have been cries to balance the game since it was first introduced, and the same things people say about bloodspike or sway or whatever are the same complaints they used to make about IWAY.

It's easier to add new things than it is to balance the skills again and again and again, with each successive balance being met with a chorus of complaints.

Trinity Fire Angel · Feb 24, 2010, 08:50 PM // 20:50

i dunno... i am a PvP player and i don;t want stability. i want balance and at the same time, new and exciting builds and new meta's. i like seeing builds rise and learning new ways to counter each build.

MMSDome · Feb 24, 2010, 09:08 PM // 21:08

The majority of the player base has always been PvE. PvP just really sucks now since most good players quit.

Moonlit Azure · Feb 24, 2010, 09:09 PM // 21:09

The way PvP works needs to be changed. There should be none or minimal rewards in PvP because as Guild Wars grew, it attracted people whos only concern was to max titles or farm.

Instead of playing a challenging match, most people want to win as fast and easy as possible so they can get their achievements. I'd rather see a barebones pvp with people who want to be there.

Yesterday, I was playing with my ritualist in RA, and I had some posh monk forcing me to leave because she didn't want me on the team.

jazilla · Feb 24, 2010, 09:15 PM // 21:15

I just wish that ANET had realized when they made EOTN and announced GW2 at that time, that GW2 was way further off down the road and released some more content. They atleast should have released more Derv/Para skills and Elites at the least. This "apocalypse" stuff that is supposed to be happening in Tyria sounds promising. I hope they can deliver from what was said in that interview, and I hope Tyria looks pretty bleak at that point.

I haven't been this excited for an update in a good long while for this game. Looks like I can finally put down Street Fighter 4 for a bit and start up some GW again.

The-Bigz · Feb 24, 2010, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

I think it is less a case of "sophistication", and more of expectation.

PvE players want new things. New weapons, new dungeons, new missions, new regions, new places to explore and things to kill.

PvP players want current things to be stabilized. There have been cries to balance the game since it was first introduced, and the same things people say about bloodspike or sway or whatever are the same complaints they used to make about IWAY.

It's easier to add new things than it is to balance the skills again and again and again, with each successive balance being met with a chorus of complaints.

You are beyond wrong. Stabilized? The 5% of PvPers on this forum want it stabilized becaue they are R6+ Hero rank and want to e-peen about it so they quote HA every 3 seconds like they think they can win without the rigged wiki build they downloaded and vent their cousin lets them borrow.

Every PvPer I have run into just wants to PvP. Do you have ANY idea how long the wait is on any PvP based Arena besides RA? Codex, Alliance Battles (The largest participated PvP in the game), Hero's Ascent is long because not everybody wants to download builds and 123 spike on vent, sometimes even Random Fails makes you restart once or twice. There are alot of fixed to this, and they are not hard to implement, at all.

RA - Allow people to advertise themselves as something and then what they would like in their group, this would still be random, but would stop the 3 monks and 1 healer rit problem and /resign or waste 10 minutes of your life problem.

Codex - Most people dont wanna spend time creating/fixing builds. Bring Team Arena back, but give itself its own title instead of sharing one with random. Yes, I said that. Re-read if non believing of these things.

Alliance Battles - What utter and complete retard decided to buff a 10 minute PvE battle with a twist into a +2.5k+ faction mission? Yes I'm talking about JQ and FA. Vanquishing was bad enough on letting people farm what SHOULD be a PvP title. (Yes I know you really get into the game, but vanquishing AI for 3 years to farm yet ANOTHER grind title is retardedly unfair when you get R12 and go to AB as a W/E and play hamstorm instead of shock axe or conjure HB and think you know how to play.) Now people can create PvP only characters and be even LAZIER about farming this title if they REALLY dont want to PvE? If they dont want to PvP thats cool, but give AB a buff for christs sake for those of us who can't stand wacking at Chess Pieces while running the same path with no problems whatsoever like its PvE with an upgraded component.

Hero's Ascent - Make this Random. Yes, I said it. Make Hero's Ascent Random like Random Arena's. Your all going 'AW WTF' but thats the only way to stop rigged builds and 123 vent spiking and everyone knows it, they just dont want to admit it. And it will be damn near impossible to sync an 8 vs 8 in international heavy populated districts.

I have even more ideas, but I was just posting this because you posted a vague post and tried to claim that all PvPers are like that, we are not. I do not care if one skill from each class is overpowered, just don't make every class underpowered to the point where everyone farms faction in FA/JQ, forgets that Gladiator even exists because of the amount of retards in RA making it uncomfortable, and making teams restart their builds from scratch every 6 hours let alone if they started getting together late and did well.

EDIT: I went off topic but I wanted to express my opinion. I dont mind PvP that badly and I AB quite often and have a high rank in both Lux and Kurz, but I haven't maxed it yet because I do buy Jade Shards and etc and sell them to get money to buy weapons/shields/accessories and stuff for my PvP only characters so they can still look cool. But cmon, this game was based on PvP, we want to PvP. Give people a reason to come PvP Arena Net, seriously. This whole 'You dont ever have to battle another person in the game to get some PvP ranks' stuff is getting out of hand, and the amount of rigged retardness that goes on in the game mainly negates most PvP titles anyways. Sync for RA, Play a random rigged build that will always win the first area in HA to farm fame points, slowly but surely, and play an RoJ monk or Necro bomber in JQ.

The Drunkard · Feb 24, 2010, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Of course it has, since when was the last world tournament? Anet has shifted to PvE because they have to keep the game alive long enough to put GW2 on the shelves so they can start on a clean slate. Updating skills for pvp is only going to appeal to a minority, compared to say, adding dhuum to the UW for people to fight with new shiny loot.

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 24, 2010, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

WoW's PvE is far more dynamic than GW.

So how come when I tried the trial I was greeted with three GO KILL X ENEMIES quests?

The-Bigz · Feb 24, 2010, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

So how come when I tried the trial I was greeted with three GO KILL X ENEMIES quests?

I've never played WoW before, but do you think Guild Wars 'Go Kill X enemy and claim X # of pelts from them' is better? Or maybe you just never noticed because they so cleverly disguised it.

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 24, 2010, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

Hero's Ascent - Make this Random. Yes, I said it. Make Hero's Ascent Random like Random Arena's. Your all going 'AW WTF' but thats the only way to stop rigged builds and 123 vent spiking and everyone knows it, they just dont want to admit it. And it will be damn near impossible to sync an 8 vs 8 in international heavy populated districts.

/signed

Sure, some existing HA players will leave and a lot will bitch. But a lot will keep playing, and way more people from other gametypes will start playing. You'll get a surge of people from RA (in fact, I get the feeling most of RA would move in) and other gametypes.

Would instantly revitalize HA and make it interesting.

Apok Omen · Feb 24, 2010, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Look at other PvP games, even casual ones, and look at how they degraded their quality.

Does anyone even remember Call of Duty, the original one? Where you didn't get jack shit for killing anyone except for a kill/death ratio? People still played that for years, and still do. It was simplistic (max of 5 weapons per nation, none of them better than the other, no titles, no rank, no gayass Martyrdom, and no goddamn claymores)

Then Call of Duty 2 came, and added on some new mechanics (health regen, enemy radar, more guns, and lets you know when you hit someone) It took away the difficulty of planning assaults and actually having to know when your target is dead from them just not shooting at you anymore. Made it too easy, and therefore I turned away from it.

And then CoD4 came out, and the shit really hit the fan. Points and titles for killing people, buffs, airstrikes, choppers, claymores, etc. Hell, there were even servers where people can just shoot the opposing team to death just to farm ranks.

And that was how I turned away from the franchise. I could care less if I had 10 killstreaks in a game or if I know where someone on the map is. If I get rewarded with something that no one else in the match has, I feel like the game is telling me to cheat, to be unfair. It takes away from the sheer excitement of just knowing you can RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing own everyone on the map with the same gun that they have, and replaces it with the mindless goal of getting the best e-loot until they can't give no more.

And everyone wonders why Izzy always plays TF2 instead of improving GW...

The point is that GW, even though you had to unlock all the skills to play at a decent level, didn't give you any power buffs for killing a certain amount of people. GvG didn't have champ titles at the beginning, and it was the most sought-after arena in the game. People wanted to play there for the sheer knowledge of knowing they were better than the other team, for being known as someone who could play in high-end PvP. Sadly, once the titles came into the fray, the PvEers wanted to have that "Champion" word under their name and began running the gayest shit ever.

CoD made these changes to appeal to the people that wanted their hands held throughout the game and needed some recognition for killing as much as they can. Sadly, they, like so many other games, didn't know what players would do just for a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing UAV or care package...

GW did the same with titles and shiny emotes, but they were smart enough to follow the money...

Karate Jesus · Feb 24, 2010, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

So how come when I tried the trial I was greeted with three GO KILL X ENEMIES quests?

Imagine if a GW player quit while still in pre-sear, or on Noob Island Cantha/Elona. What would you try to explain to them?

Now,

1. Write down what you would say.
2. Read it in front of a mirror.
3. ???
4. PROFIT!

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 24, 2010, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

I've never played WoW before, but do you think Guild Wars 'Go Kill X enemy and claim X # of pelts from them' is better?

I don't use collector items and only with the introduction of Nicholas have I encountered "acquire X amount of X."

Also, if I recall correctly yes, you did have to take the pelts off stuff in WoW. That's probably what you're thinking of.

Guild Wars is a story-based game. There is no "kill X enemies and take stuff," there's "go to this place, complete this mission," and it is glorious.

Dark Saviour · Feb 24, 2010, 09:53 PM // 21:53

I'll keep out of most of the discussion, but I want to address the idea that PvE players stay out of PvP due to sensitivity to poor attitudes;

This is indeed the case for alot of players, but not everyone keeps out of PvP for that reason. Personally, I just don't typically find general forms of competitive play fun. I like to have a set end-point where things can be considered "finished" and something where the goal is simply to "win" whenever you play isn't particularly enjoyable to me. It's similar to the reason I dislike games where the goal is to simply play as long as possible and get a high-score; there is no definitive "point-of-completion" or a definite goal to accomplish.

I'd be lying if I said that the community ISN'T off-putting though, but to me, the obnoxious attitudes are more of an additional reason to avoid it rather than a primary obstacle to PvP in general.

Admittedly, when it first came out, Guild Wars really didn't have that much to accomplish from a completionist perspective (which is why I thought the Sorrow's Furnace update and collectible "Green" rares was a step in the right direction), but the PvE still suited my tastes infinitely more than PvP. Now titles have been introduced to both though, and while they DO define specific "endpoint" and "goals" to complete, they really feel incredibly forced and artificial, much like X36Ø's achivement points (which have, unfortunately, pretty much destroyed gaming for me, but that's another discussion). Essentially rather than feeling like a natural goal available within the game, they feel like a complete chore and I don't particularly find enjoyment out of getting them.

The PvE titles are in-general less obnoxious though, because there at least exists some appeal in the game itself. As I have never enjoyed PvP though, and the titles feel like an artificial goal, PvP still doesn't hold much appeal from a "completionist" standpoint.

Though that was a bit difficult to word properly, I hope it made sense.

TLDR: Some people just don't enjoy PvP itself based on its fundamental design. It's not necessarily a matter of being thin-skinned.

Martin Alvito · Feb 24, 2010, 10:20 PM // 22:20

@ Dark Saviour: That's an interesting point that I hadn't considered. In my experience, PvE-ers that cannot make the transition fail at PvP because they just don't mesh with the PvP community's culture, expectations and behavior. It's interesting to hear someone argue that the lack of defined goals is also problematic.

snaek · Feb 24, 2010, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by apok omen

Look at other PvP games, even casual ones, and look at how they degraded their quality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dark saviour

TLDR: Some people just don't enjoy PvP itself based on its fundamental design. It's not necessarily a matter of being thin-skinned.

here lies a big problem: pvp purists have to suffer because more and more game companies are trying to implement elements into pvp games that cater to the casual gamer in order to make more sales, which results in a poorer experience for the pvp purist.

to be honest, i do not think this has to be done in order to be a success. for example, just take a look at starcraft and hopefully starcraft 2. i am not one of the sc2 beta testers, but i have heard many good things about this game that it is staying true to its competitive pvp roots.

enter_the_zone · Feb 24, 2010, 10:42 PM // 22:42

The failure to transition to PVP may also have something to do with the fact it takes forever to find a decent group and the setup for the match is usually longer than the match itself. How very boring..

Most people aren't going to waste 30 minutes to an hour of their leisure time standing in town while either trying to find a group, or pinging builds, discussing strategy etc. in what is about 80% likely to be a failure anyway.

The fact than only about 10% of people in HA can actually string a sentence together or think a coherent thought, doesn't help. These kind of people are objectionable in real life, let alone a game where I can avoid them.

Strategy game PVP (like starcraft) lends itself much more easily to PVE players, and it's usually 1v1 or 2v2.

The big problem is not that companies implement PVE/casual elements into PVP games, it's that PVP games don't have enough players to be worthwhile making if they don't... GW could have entirely split PVP and PVE in terms of everything. Skills, professions, the lot. Hell, the PVP pack proves it. The problem was not doing that right at the beginning and marketing them as sister games, one an RPG, the other a PVP game, with similar skill sets and professions but not identical.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 24, 2010, 10:42 PM // 22:42

No, it hasn't, Anet is just finally realizing that you can't slap PvE into a PvP game, so they are trying to push PvE more apart from PVP in terms of skills and such.

It's definitely a good direction, and they certainly havn't neglected PvP, so there isn't really anything to complain about.

Windf0rce · Feb 24, 2010, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Breaking news: RPG players prefer PvE.

Not everyone is competitive, most people prefer making friends and cooperating in a relaxing environment than dealing with a lot of the crap that PvP brings.

Arena Net is simply doing the wise business decision; PvE >>>> PvP.